skywaterblue (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
skywaterblue) wrote2011-12-20 12:32 pm
skywaterblue) wrote2011-12-20 12:32 pm
A Discussion on Reinventing MUSHing:
Last night, Ide @ WORA discovered this Kickstarter project, 'The Written Word' which "[...]is a multiplayer storytelling game which lives on the internet."
Your first thought may be mine: those already exist, and have for thirty years. We call them MUSHes.
The project proposal goes on: "Well, Massively Multiplayer Write ‘em up is a pretty new genre, But it also picks up on a bunch of stuff you probably understand already.
You might have heard of text adventures - they call them Interactive Fiction now. Even if you’re not as geeky as us don’t worry - basically you’re going to be taking it in turns to tell a story."
So naturally, I was kind of pissed. We've seen this kind of co-opted male-washing of female fandom activities before, where a primarily male-led team charges in to find a business model making money by ripping off the work of female-led fandom. I kicked it to my Facebook and Twitter accounts, where I know lots of female fen outside of MU*ing circles and those who are current/former players. Most seemed to agree with my sentiment and picked up on other disturbing signs.
Here, then, is a complete copy of the private discussion I've been having with Simon of 'The Written Word'.
**SKYWATERBLUE**
You might be interested to know that this has existed for 30+ years and we call it "MUSHing". Not only are there about five actively maintained codebases for the servers, but there's easily several hundred games.
Here are some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH
http://wora.netlosers.com/
http://pennmush.org/
https://github.com/lynnfaraday/MUSH
I could basically set up what you're planning using existing technology for twenty bucks. Also, people are making fun of you on WORA. You need to do some more research before you launch projects - I am NOT going to support 18+ flipping grand to reinvent the wheel.
**SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD**
Hi (my real name)
Thanks for writing to us - I’d like to take a little time in replying to you, because I am aware of MUSH’s and I do earnestly believe that you have misunderstood what we are aiming to offer.
I’ve been RPing online since I’ve been old enough to have a decent stab at writing - though I’m a little young perhaps for MUD’s and MUSH I’ve played around on them. Actually the first program I ever wrote was a text adventure in BASIC. I feel like I’ve earned my geek credentials, though there is always, always more to learn.
You’re right to say that a portion of the game we are making is reflected in some software now long in the tooth - but I would say that it only accounts for a very small part of the total experience we aim to offer.
When we say we’re looking to create something akin to an Interactive Fiction MMO what we mean is - every story you create will have a shared existence, in a world that is persistent. You’ll be able to play through your stories with other characters which have a real existence in our world, or playing as a character you will have the opportunity to slowly explore a massive world filled with endlessly novel content. We’re building an interface which brings all of these experiences together into one seamless, easy - and free - to use experience. We’re going to be offering our players everything from long-term character development in the form of traits and force points, to extensive and flexible story creation tools - our most recent story creation play test produced great strong short story frames with people completely un-prepped in 15 minutes.
It’s a shame that you see what we are doing as re-inventing the wheel - my hope in designing this tool was always that people who already are invested in other systems would find somewhere to bring their projects which would support the way they wanted to play while giving all the stories that are produced some persistence and audience. I’d love to talk more with you about how to make that happen.
One last thing - I couldn't find anyone discussing us on WORA, could you throw me a link? I’d love to jump in and talk about this stuff with people.
All the best,
Simon.
**SKYWATERBLUE**
Not only do I think you're re-inventing the wheel, I think the way this pitch is written is pretty offensive to the founders of the MU*ing community as well as those currently in it, and a great deal of the people who I've shown it to feel the same way. (Several of the women I've shown it to have taken particular offense to the description of 'slash' as something to be avoided. This combined with the fact that no mention is made of the historical past of text based RPG servers online made several comment that it feels like an effort to male-wash a group where women have traditionally played an equal role in history/development.)
What you're pitching me as different - an Interactive Fiction MMO - is essentially NO DIFFERENT from what hundreds of people currently do as their day to day hobby. MUDs are, in fact, the ancestors of MMOs. They were called graphic MUDs at first.
I think if you had pitched this as development for a new type of MU* server, I would feel less pissed off about your project. I also think your project could really benefit from learning more about MU*ing - some of what we do as a community is in desperate need of fixing, but a lot of it is learned behavior from 30 years of history.
The thread is here: http://wora.netlosers.com/index.php...
**SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD**
Hi (my real name),
You're right about the use of 'slash' as something negative - it's a response to a question I was asked - I've removed any specific reference to slash in that FAQ. The answer given remains true - we can't place ourselves as content judges, we only aim to provide a platform for people to write. I think the question was more concerned with young people interacting with adult content then anything else.
With Regards to male-washing - it couldn't be further from our goals. I would love your assistance in helping us to more clearly communicate that fact.
The fact that hundreds of people work hard to create these amazing experiences for their hobby is exactly what has inspired me to create The Written World. My hope is that we can provide for them an awesome tool and a great place to engage in that hobby. I've yet to see anything out there that offers the features we are building, in order to support and expand that community, not usurp it.
I would like to open the conversation on WORA by publishing this conversation there - but I am asking your permission to do that first.
Best,
Simon.
** SKYWATERBLUE **
I am not that interested in having the exact details of our conversation repasted on WORA. In part, because I will choose to speak for myself with my own username there, which carries a bit more weight.
I also don't think WORA is necessarily the forum you should be looking at to discuss the historical/gender issues I feel are involved in this project proposal as it stands. I would rather repost our discussion on my Dreamwidth and invite the people I was discussing it with elsewhere into that thread. I feel that many of the people who would like to comment would not feel comfortable doing so on WORA, which can be overly hostile (to everyone).
** SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD **
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Report Spam
The Written World
Tuesday Dec 20, 10:18am PST
Hi (my real name),
OK: I will post just my part of our discussion then, with reference to the fact that you contacted me. What is your username there?
I'm happy for you to post this on your Dreamwidth, but I ask that if you are going to quote me you do so in full, and within the full context of your own comments. What is the url of your page on Dreamwidth?
I also would still love any advice you can offer on more clearly expressing our intent to be egalitarian on our project page - and specifically where we currently fail to do so, or seem to say the opposite!
Thanks,
Simon.
** SKYWATERBLUE **
That's no problem.
My name there, as here, is skywaterblue. skywaterblue.dreamwidth.org.
He's not an unreasonable spokesperson for his project. My concerns remain that he and his group are deliberately writing their Kickstarter goal without addressing the fact that his project firmly exists within a continuity of activities that stretch back to the earliest days of the Internet while presenting itself as something revolutionary. I find it troubling (but not surprising) to learn that he is aware of MU*ing but chose not to mention it even in passing in the project proposal, and I think there's an unpleasant whiff of Internet gender bias in that presentation. I still believe that Simon believes his project is somehow fundamentally different from what it appears to be for me - a new flavor of MU* server.
While I don't object to people turning their hobbies into paying gigs, and support Kickstarter as a great way to finally harness the power of the Internet to do that, I feel like 18,000 dollars is awfully steep.
Simon's promised to check in on this post and address concerns you want to raise. I promise to be a dutiful minder of the discussion and step in if things seem to turn south.
Your turn, ladies! (And gents!)
EDIT: To fix the initial reporter on WORA, and to remove my real name.
Your first thought may be mine: those already exist, and have for thirty years. We call them MUSHes.
The project proposal goes on: "Well, Massively Multiplayer Write ‘em up is a pretty new genre, But it also picks up on a bunch of stuff you probably understand already.
You might have heard of text adventures - they call them Interactive Fiction now. Even if you’re not as geeky as us don’t worry - basically you’re going to be taking it in turns to tell a story."
So naturally, I was kind of pissed. We've seen this kind of co-opted male-washing of female fandom activities before, where a primarily male-led team charges in to find a business model making money by ripping off the work of female-led fandom. I kicked it to my Facebook and Twitter accounts, where I know lots of female fen outside of MU*ing circles and those who are current/former players. Most seemed to agree with my sentiment and picked up on other disturbing signs.
Here, then, is a complete copy of the private discussion I've been having with Simon of 'The Written Word'.
**SKYWATERBLUE**
You might be interested to know that this has existed for 30+ years and we call it "MUSHing". Not only are there about five actively maintained codebases for the servers, but there's easily several hundred games.
Here are some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH
http://wora.netlosers.com/
http://pennmush.org/
https://github.com/lynnfaraday/MUSH
I could basically set up what you're planning using existing technology for twenty bucks. Also, people are making fun of you on WORA. You need to do some more research before you launch projects - I am NOT going to support 18+ flipping grand to reinvent the wheel.
**SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD**
Hi (my real name)
Thanks for writing to us - I’d like to take a little time in replying to you, because I am aware of MUSH’s and I do earnestly believe that you have misunderstood what we are aiming to offer.
I’ve been RPing online since I’ve been old enough to have a decent stab at writing - though I’m a little young perhaps for MUD’s and MUSH I’ve played around on them. Actually the first program I ever wrote was a text adventure in BASIC. I feel like I’ve earned my geek credentials, though there is always, always more to learn.
You’re right to say that a portion of the game we are making is reflected in some software now long in the tooth - but I would say that it only accounts for a very small part of the total experience we aim to offer.
When we say we’re looking to create something akin to an Interactive Fiction MMO what we mean is - every story you create will have a shared existence, in a world that is persistent. You’ll be able to play through your stories with other characters which have a real existence in our world, or playing as a character you will have the opportunity to slowly explore a massive world filled with endlessly novel content. We’re building an interface which brings all of these experiences together into one seamless, easy - and free - to use experience. We’re going to be offering our players everything from long-term character development in the form of traits and force points, to extensive and flexible story creation tools - our most recent story creation play test produced great strong short story frames with people completely un-prepped in 15 minutes.
It’s a shame that you see what we are doing as re-inventing the wheel - my hope in designing this tool was always that people who already are invested in other systems would find somewhere to bring their projects which would support the way they wanted to play while giving all the stories that are produced some persistence and audience. I’d love to talk more with you about how to make that happen.
One last thing - I couldn't find anyone discussing us on WORA, could you throw me a link? I’d love to jump in and talk about this stuff with people.
All the best,
Simon.
**SKYWATERBLUE**
Not only do I think you're re-inventing the wheel, I think the way this pitch is written is pretty offensive to the founders of the MU*ing community as well as those currently in it, and a great deal of the people who I've shown it to feel the same way. (Several of the women I've shown it to have taken particular offense to the description of 'slash' as something to be avoided. This combined with the fact that no mention is made of the historical past of text based RPG servers online made several comment that it feels like an effort to male-wash a group where women have traditionally played an equal role in history/development.)
What you're pitching me as different - an Interactive Fiction MMO - is essentially NO DIFFERENT from what hundreds of people currently do as their day to day hobby. MUDs are, in fact, the ancestors of MMOs. They were called graphic MUDs at first.
I think if you had pitched this as development for a new type of MU* server, I would feel less pissed off about your project. I also think your project could really benefit from learning more about MU*ing - some of what we do as a community is in desperate need of fixing, but a lot of it is learned behavior from 30 years of history.
The thread is here: http://wora.netlosers.com/index.php...
**SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD**
Hi (my real name),
You're right about the use of 'slash' as something negative - it's a response to a question I was asked - I've removed any specific reference to slash in that FAQ. The answer given remains true - we can't place ourselves as content judges, we only aim to provide a platform for people to write. I think the question was more concerned with young people interacting with adult content then anything else.
With Regards to male-washing - it couldn't be further from our goals. I would love your assistance in helping us to more clearly communicate that fact.
The fact that hundreds of people work hard to create these amazing experiences for their hobby is exactly what has inspired me to create The Written World. My hope is that we can provide for them an awesome tool and a great place to engage in that hobby. I've yet to see anything out there that offers the features we are building, in order to support and expand that community, not usurp it.
I would like to open the conversation on WORA by publishing this conversation there - but I am asking your permission to do that first.
Best,
Simon.
** SKYWATERBLUE **
I am not that interested in having the exact details of our conversation repasted on WORA. In part, because I will choose to speak for myself with my own username there, which carries a bit more weight.
I also don't think WORA is necessarily the forum you should be looking at to discuss the historical/gender issues I feel are involved in this project proposal as it stands. I would rather repost our discussion on my Dreamwidth and invite the people I was discussing it with elsewhere into that thread. I feel that many of the people who would like to comment would not feel comfortable doing so on WORA, which can be overly hostile (to everyone).
** SIMON @ THE WRITTEN WORD **
Widget_image2.small
Report Spam
The Written World
Tuesday Dec 20, 10:18am PST
Hi (my real name),
OK: I will post just my part of our discussion then, with reference to the fact that you contacted me. What is your username there?
I'm happy for you to post this on your Dreamwidth, but I ask that if you are going to quote me you do so in full, and within the full context of your own comments. What is the url of your page on Dreamwidth?
I also would still love any advice you can offer on more clearly expressing our intent to be egalitarian on our project page - and specifically where we currently fail to do so, or seem to say the opposite!
Thanks,
Simon.
** SKYWATERBLUE **
That's no problem.
My name there, as here, is skywaterblue. skywaterblue.dreamwidth.org.
He's not an unreasonable spokesperson for his project. My concerns remain that he and his group are deliberately writing their Kickstarter goal without addressing the fact that his project firmly exists within a continuity of activities that stretch back to the earliest days of the Internet while presenting itself as something revolutionary. I find it troubling (but not surprising) to learn that he is aware of MU*ing but chose not to mention it even in passing in the project proposal, and I think there's an unpleasant whiff of Internet gender bias in that presentation. I still believe that Simon believes his project is somehow fundamentally different from what it appears to be for me - a new flavor of MU* server.
While I don't object to people turning their hobbies into paying gigs, and support Kickstarter as a great way to finally harness the power of the Internet to do that, I feel like 18,000 dollars is awfully steep.
Simon's promised to check in on this post and address concerns you want to raise. I promise to be a dutiful minder of the discussion and step in if things seem to turn south.
Your turn, ladies! (And gents!)
EDIT: To fix the initial reporter on WORA, and to remove my real name.