Gosh, "World Without End"

[skywaterblue]

I know there are arguments for "Game Of Thrones" not really being that awful in terms of feminism. (I don't think they hold water, but that's for you to decide. I couldn't finish the first book for its glossy depictions of child rape, but knock yourselves out.) Irregardless of your feelings about "Thrones" it is very much not a progressive show with its depiction of Nobel Savages and the complete absenting of any non-Noble character's opinion on the events. Which, sure, maybe isn't what it's there for, but like all High Fantasy genre pieces without those perspectives it falls into the same conservative spin.

I just finished the much lesser known "World Without End" however, and yeah. That is what "Game Of Thrones" would look like if it had half a progressive bone in its body. By the eighth episode, it's clear we're dealing in much far-removed from reality historical fiction, however...

Has anyone else watched this? Is there a tiny but awesome fanbase I could join?

Comments

[saturnofthemoon]

I've read the book but, (so far) only skimmed the miniseries. It kind of bothered me because while the book certainly had rape in it, but the miniseries is even worse. (Gwenda was sold but never raped by her father, Caris was never married to Elfric, and Godric never had a thing for his cousin.) I'm a much bigger fan of its predecessor, Pillars of the Earth and its accompanying miniseries.

Also, I'm confused. Wasn't it Richard III that they found in a car park?

[skywaterblue]

Ah, bother. You're right. That's the American education system for you. (At least I remembered their maladies mostly correctly: red hot poker versus the hunchback.) Edited it out.

Yes, that second episode is pretty much a non-stop rape-fest and I almost quit it there, but without having read the book I thought it held together in that all of the rapes depicted are horrible things that happen to main female characters because of the patriarchy and rape culture. All of the female characters continue to be main characters after the rape. The rapes are all depicted from the female perspective with appropriate aftermath, and it's all build-up for the finale of that episode which is the hanging of the 'witch' and the utter collapse of the bridge that is signifying society within the series. It's making a pretty heavy-handed point about the utter degradation that the average woman is experiencing at that point in history. (But, y'know, it is also having to fight an uphill battle against a zillion cable television shows that have shown graphic rape scenes with far less feminist agendas.)

One thing I like about that episode is that they plan to hang the witch rather than burn her. Far more women died by hanging during 'The Burning Times' than were actually burnt. It's a little disappointing that the series backslides on that trope later.

My big criticism is that even though I am pro-feminist agenda, that episode does reek of revisionist feminist scholarship. (It is very 'Ye Olde Burning Times'!) A lot of that scholarship rests on pretty shaky foundations.

[saturnofthemoon]

Yes, I can see your point. Gwenda and Caris are victims are the start of the book/miniseries, but they fight back and go on to have successful lives.

Far more women died by hanging during 'The Burning Times' than were actually burnt. It's a little disappointing that the series backslides on that trope later.

That's odd, because I distinctly remember Ken Follett's novel only doing hangings.

I am a fan of Game of Thrones and most of the female characters GRRM writes, but I can see your point on how World Without End is better. It was very hard to read Daenaerys' chapters in the first book, especially when other fans are insisting her marriage to Khal Drogo turns into true love. I can't see it as anything but Stockholm Syndrome. I actually like it a bit better on the TV series where their wedding night is blatantly portrayed as rape.

[skywaterblue]

And in Gwenda's case it leads to her and her husband eventually finding that young woman in the forest, and Gwenda passionately fighting for her when it's going to be nothing but trouble for two serfs to accuse a noble of rape. (And then! It goes to trial and conviction! In the 14th Century, no less. Now, such things happened, but they were passing rare indeed.)

They are definitely trying to burn Cairs in episode seven, aren't they? It's been a while, but I actually took a class on the witch craze and I recall that England just didn't do a lot of burning at the stake.

I actually like it a bit better on the TV series where their wedding night is blatantly portrayed as rape.

I don't know if I prefer it on the TV show, but being depicted as clearly a rape is better than reading the male-gazey passages of old hoary GRRM discussing a huge noble savage fucking his fourteen year old bride. One creeped me out much, much less, I'm sorry to say.